Astrology and religion's like Christianity and Judaism are morally compatible.

Total Voters: 864 Yes 44% No 44% Undecided 44% Pat 04/29/08 5:19am Ed, you okay? Where are you? There are so many gone since the last few polls. And Thomas, don't leave. Everybody come back. Amanda 04/26/08 3:58pm Thank you Jeff. As a Pagan I all too many times see fellow Pagans try to hold themselves as wise because they find all of these additional texts or what have you that they say 'should be' in the bible..and otherwise pick Christianity apart. Knowledge is one thing but wisdom another. I know that many times the Christian religion is too restrictive for free spirited people, and they find something else..hopefully. But that doesn't mean that what they believe is wrong or less than..it truly helps untold millions of people. Yes they have their doctrine and yes each doctrine is different in accordance to that particular denomination. It is as it should be. Right now I am researching a being that is called Malek. he has been with me for the past four years. He actually is some sort of Angelic creature. Does that make him a 'Christian Angel'? uhhhh no. He has been written about in texts that the yezedi,Sudans and other mid-eat peoples hold sacred.Does he belong in the bible??? I have no idea. Like myself, he is what he is Jeff 04/26/08 11:13am You are a wise woman Amanda! I like the way you reason. :-) Amanda 04/26/08 4:05am I think the single largest mistake we make is that we want to judge another's religion. We want to poke holes in it and tell what it should say, what should be there, what is lacking. Thats not our right really in my book. I am not a Christian. That path does not speak to me. However, I do see where it aids many in their lives and that is the point.What texts are or are not there does not matter. What matters is what it does for those that follow it.As far as your gift goes, well I would write down the things you see and keep a log, then pay attention. You have these for a reason and yes, I do think there is a higher purpose involved. Remember the profits of the bible were gifted, interpreting dreams and such and they needed nothing to do this. You might be interested to know the way tarot works. It is like a math equation. Your past and present equals this outcome providing things stay on this path. If X,Y or Z changes then this outcome is avoided or changed. Too they can be used for purely psychological reasons. You pick a card that reflects how you feel now and one that shows where you want to be, then look at other cards that show you the steps to take to get there. I think as a person outside of Christianity I have no right to say how inaccurate this or that is or what scrolls should or should not be used..that isn't my choice and think about it..if I am not a part of, how does it affect me and why do I care in the first place? Bam Bam 04/25/08 6:11pm Amanda you are so right. People do break off and form their own sects. We can see evidence of this with Polygamy and in the terrorist activity in Iraq. Some people will even use it to suit their own purpose. You are right again the question specifically relates to morals and the religions asked about. There is no way anyone can be perfect when it comes to following every word of the Bible or Kabbalah ( I think thats right) again no one is perfect, but, hopefully we all have good intentions and God is a forgiving god. Bam Bam 04/25/08 5:31pm John - Yes, God gave me these gifts and he has instructed me not to use them. I don't use them for anyone but my self. But, understand when it happens to me I have no control over what I see, it just happens like a movie playing before me. But, on the same token I don't seek out to use them or improve them either. I will utilize this site to clarify visions that are frightening or confusing though. The Bible however instructs us simply not to look or worry about tomorrow because God will take care of our needs today and he does. Being human it's hard not to use this site or cards knowing that they are available. I put no faith in my readings, I do put my faith in God. Readings are only temporary in making any angst subside. Remember, life changes daily so readings can change too. You cannot rely on them. One can only rely on what is true and lasting and that is the word of God. I am not perfect, but, I am a faithful person and I follow the Bible. But, I do break the rules....but only tiny ones. Amanda 04/25/08 4:12pm To me it is pretty simple. It is up to the religious leaders of whatever given religion to decide what texts are used and which ones are not used. In reality there are many, countless texts dating far back that if one wished can be applied to most any judeo-christian religion. The major point is that they are not. Why? Well it doesn't matter why, the point is they aren't and it isn't up to someone outside those paths or religions to interpret what should apply and what doesn't. It is up to the adherents and up to whomever is the head leaders to do that. precedence..who cares? Thats not the point. The point is that for good or ill, logical or not, any judeo-christian religion is governed by a structure and by tenets of what is and is not acceptable. if you adhere to that religion and are a member, then you do what is taught. That is the total point of a religion, the structure of it. When people don't like the structure or the rules, they break off and form their own. John 04/25/08 6:56am The blind leading the blind... Amanda 04/25/08 4:16am Thomas, get over yourself. I have no idea why it is so hard to understand doctrine and particular religious teachings and training in this question. All I have seen you do is give dates..no direct quotes at all, no links..nothing. What a priest can do and what someone else can do is totally different. Now heres another thing..most texts are online Thomas..so where are your direct quotes from these texts that prove what you are saying? Care to scan some stuff in and show it? I mean I think it would be interesting to us all. Bam Bam as far as gifts go that was always a very sticky topic for the church. However there has always been precedence for this sort of thing. There was also a fine line between gifts from God and witchcraft..your lucky you're in the here and now. Thomas 04/24/08 8:46pm Okay, Amanda. The facts have become clear. Whether you are right or wrong is besides the point. You have either ignored or avoided every argument I have laid down. If a priest is allowed to learn how to read the stars, then clearly there is no problem with a parishioner consulting that priest. This is not a moral incompatibility. As for who texts were meant for? We are talking about books written during the days of ancient Babylon. These books were and are placed in temple libraries for anyone who could read to read. There was never any restriction on that, but I digress. I have made my arguments in the process of agreeing with yours. I have conceeded all of your points, even in the face of uncertain information. You make it clear that any argument doesn't matter, and you clearly have no intention of responding to a perfectly valid argument. This is the third time I have contested your statements and have failed to address any one of them. You are parading yourself as some sort of authority, and quite frankly, if you'll pardon the expression, I don't know you from Adam. Since any one of my arguments can be easily verified in the public library, then obviously what I have written is not the ramblings of some yokel idiot. You, on the other hand, posted a few scriptured, talked down to anyone who disagreed as though they were ignorant children, and failed to post another legitimate argument since. You simply allowed the passages in question to withstand the scrutiny of the board, which was sufficient for Christianity, but has thus far failed to support Judaism. Your only argument at this point has been simply to say that you're right and everyone else is wrong. At this point, I am through debating with you, Madam. You have made no effort to respond intelligently to me and have only talked down to me as you always have. You have goaded me for the last time. I am very familiar with your kind and have no desire to associate with you. Clearly, my presence here is a negative one, and I have no desire to perpetuate such an influence. This will be my last post on this board. Clearly, I have nothing of value to contribute. For those of you who are interested, this is where can find me on the net. I am the co-owner of several Yahoo Groups that many of you may be interested in. http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/ourladyofdarkness discusses ghosts and the paranormal. While our group is serious about the paranormal, we are not always serious with each other, so prepare for some silliness. http://www.groups.yahoo.com/arthurianmythandlegends goes where no Arthurian group has gone before. Unlike most groups interested in King Arthur, we also discuss comparative mythology. Anything which may have a link to Arthurian lore is open to discussion, even the links to the ancient Pagan legends. We have actual professors and archeologists on board so be prepared for some heavy academic discussion. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/graveyards is the perfect group for any taphophile. Read epitaphs, view pictures of famous cemeteries and discuss the histories associated with them. Finally http://groups.yahoo.com/group/divine_awareness is a group I have neglected and have allowed to fall into stagnation. Fortunately, I still have it, and there are still interesting people on board. I have decided to give it the care it deserves. It's a board for the general discussion of philosophy, spirituality and mythology. Feel free to post your own experiences if you are comfortable doing so. Nobody is wrong and everyone's voice is perfectly valid. John 04/24/08 8:20pm Hello Bam Bam, you say you are a christian and you see the "gifts" you have as in contradiction with your religion. You must understand that God gave you these gifts, as you well acknowledge, and He, therefore, has a place "within" His church and "within" your faith for these gifts to be used for the good of His body the Church and for your own good as well. But if you choose to use these gifts outside of what He prescribes then instead of being an instrument of good, as they were intended, these gifts will instead become an instrument of evil and used by the evil one to lead you and others astray. I hope you will choose wisely. Bam Bam 04/24/08 3:34pm I guess it all comes down to who's morals then Morals are part of a persons faith or religion. But, being a Christian myself, it's hard for me. I have very high morals, but. I'm also gifted in ways that I'm instructed I'm not allowed to use. While I don't use them for other people; I still use them for myself. Yes, the good book say's it's wrong, but, God made me and I think he knew some of us would be gifted in this way. So, I hope he will forgive my continuos digressions when I visit this site. Pat 04/24/08 11:17am As good as this, I'm bored. I'd like a new poll...please! But if everyone else is not finished yet, I'll wait and be around for the next poll. Bye. Amanda 04/24/08 3:53am As far as Jewish text that was not intended for anyone but the priest hood. That wasn't for the 'common' person. Also do not forget that the priests were supposedly, just as the Kings, chosen by God. Why? To tell the people what they wanted them to know. The question is about religion. If you want to know what the Jews would say (yes I am repeating myself..I do that when a simple concept is not taken into account) then go ask a Rabbi. He would be the authority on what his religion says, not some outsider who bought some books. Hell I can't count the books I have on Jewish mysticism and Kabalah..the Rosecrutions etc. However, for the longest those things were not intended for someone like myself.Technically they still aren't. I may have those texts, but it doesn't make me Jewish and it doesn't make my practices a part of their religion anymore than if I am practicing Santeria grabbing the bible and chanting some verses makes me a Christian. Get it together..the RELIGION it's self says NO!!!!!! Diane 04/23/08 6:53pm What's so interesting about all of these comments is that everyone, including me, has backed up their comments with scriptures. So does that mean that scripture can be interpreted to back up any point of view? I had this professor of theology who has done extensive research into the development of Israelite monotheism, and in the beginning, Israelites practiced polytheism. They worshiped both Yahweh and Asherah; Asherah was the female consort of Yahweh. And the interesting thing is, while Yahweh was very insistent that the Israelites only worship him, an Asherah pole stood in the temple of Solomon for nearly 2/3 of its existence and is mentioned many times in Scripture; both as being worshiped along with Yahweh, and as being torn down upon the command of Yahweh. As the Israelite monotheistic religion developed, Yahweh ousted Baal and Asherah, and other Caananite gods. While Western religion is a man-made construct, based on Judeo-Christian scripture, we should not forget that Christianity did not just drop out of the sky. What was okayed in ancient times is not okayed by Christianity today, yet the subject of Christian mysticism is not far behind even in our technologically advanced society. If we are talking about the man made construct we call religion, 100 years in the future, Christianity may look far different than what we know and practice today (if we are Christians), and the BIble is not a stable foundation to base any set sort of beliefs on--for as history (and this conversation) demonstrates, the Bible says many things that can be interpreted however we like. Thomas 04/23/08 5:31pm I can't dispute that, but Amanda, the question is, are they morally compatable, and while we can leave the Christian debate behind, the Jewish debate is not so easily answered in black and white. It has everything to do with the texts. The texts are where the laws, proceedures and rules came from. You can argue that if I am a Jew, I cannot practice divination. However, if we consider one of your earlier comments that only priests were allowed to practice mysticism, then I may be able to say that I cannot practice Jewish divination unless I am a Jewish priest. Bearing that in mind, the Jewish scriptures clearly contain instructional texts teaching such mysticism. You can argue that only a priest is permitted to learn these things. Jewish worshippers can and will seek advice from a Rabbi who may or may not, depending on the forms he follows, be a mystic. This Rabbi may or may not have Caballic understanding of the stars and may very well rely on this knowledge or awareness in giving this advice. This would not violate the Caballic Jewish scriptures. To consult this Rabbi would create no violation of Jewish Scriptural Laws. Clearly, since no morals have been violated, the concepts are morally compatible. Are you fighting this so hard simply because you don't like the possibility that your answers may not paint a complete picture? Amanda 04/23/08 3:16pm Yes Pat it is. There is a colossal difference between religion and spirituality. The question asks about religions. Well any religion I know of has some sort of doctrine. Whether you like it or not, believe in it or not or even think it is fair or not it moot. If you want to be 'one of them' here are the rules. You do it or don't. It is that black and white according to doctrine However, spirituality is an entirely different matter. One does not even have to use the bible to touch the Christ consciousness and to learn from him. Religion is or at least Christian ones, based on the bible and of course from the various doctrine that the people forming the religion felt was important to them. So there for, if you follow Christ or Buddah in a spiritual sense and leave the religion out, No worries..you go with religion and you have a big conflict. Pat 04/23/08 10:09am Amanda, that was a very good explanation. Is this last one what you were trying to explain in the other ones? Well, if it was, I like it. I like everyone's opinions. This poll was very interesting. Amanda 04/23/08 5:07am Thomas..the question is about the religions, not about the texts so much. If anyone wants an answer to this question it is simple to get. Go ask a Rabbi, priest,preacher,minister or whatever. As I said if you would not tell your religious leader you were doing these things, well you have your answer right there. I have spent most of my life in the Christian churches of one sort or another. I know for a fact what they teach. Now, something apparently I said that went unnoticed is this. If you are one who claims to be a Christian in the sense of the word 'follower of Christ', that puts a different spin on things. if you are not engaging in religion I.e you do not claim one of the actual denominations such as baptist,methodist,presbyterian etc.., but are more on the lines of a person who is spiritual and the Christ is more of a figure or avatar or perhaps adept for you to tap into and follow..well thats different. You are in effect leaving dogma and tradition out of it and NOT engaging in the actual religions. There is a difference. Thomas 04/22/08 7:36pm Umm, Diana, Amanda was the first one to post on this topic, and she did back it up with scriptures. She's quite right, but she's locking this discussion into a single interpretation of a single religion. Religion, which like all other manmade complex structures, imitates or perception of life, is not so two-dimensional. There is little to discuss with her on the point of Christianity. My point is that there are multiple translation and that al of them are followed by someone somewhere, even the ancient ones. There will always be a big gray area for debate, but Amanda is familiar with wht is generally accepted and I cannot dispute her. As for the Jews, I do think she needs to read a bit more on that religion. It's denominations are as multitudinous as Christianity and there are denominations that practice this "ungodly" mysticism. This form of Judaism is called Cabballic (Qaballic, Caballic...there are dozens of spellings and trying to spell this word really makes my head spin) and these are the very basics of Jewish mysticism. These ancient Hebrew practices, which are still followed by many denominations today, are what much of modern witchcraft is based on (including Wicca, founded by a Gardner, who was a favorite of Aleister Crowley's, and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, cofounded by Aleister Crowley and Edgar Waite). Included in the Caballic scriptures are the examinations of the letters of the Hebrew alphabet and their mystical and elemental equivilents, and the examination, meaning and understandings of the twelve Sephira (or as they are known in Wicca, Sephiroth). Perhaps in Orthodox Judaism, divination is a no no, but that's only one group of Jew's way of looking at things. Much Jewish Caballic scripture includes alchemical symbolism, and is the first to identify the four elements and their mystical associations, including the ideology of the Perfect Fool, also known as Lapis Exillis or the Philosopher's Stone. This is the idea of the a Perfect Fool, a base and ignorant man who symbolizes the highest form of enlightenment, like Gawaine, searching for the Holy Grail, but fails to ask the question, "For whom does the Grail serve?" and so is forced to search for another seven years. To say that there is no room in Judaism for divination simply denies what is written for Judaism and demonstrates lack of understanding for what is written. Nothing against Amanda or anyone else, but instead of just looking at nothing but mainstream Judaism and the Old Testament and saying "no", try looking at the actual Jewish scriptures and seeing what they say. After all, the question was "Astrology and religions like Christianity and Judaism are morally compatable." Yes or No. For Christianity, okay. Amanda makes the mainstream argument and that's fair. Looking underneath, it's not airtight but the problem is in translation so that's open to interpretation. It's Amanda's arguments. For Judaism, there's too many facets and you realy need to do your homework before you can say "no" with any real authority. You are talking about a mystical religion thousands of years older than Christianity and it can't be wrapped into a package as easily. Thomas 04/22/08 7:25pm Umm, Diana, Amanda was the first one to post on this topic, and she did back it up with scriptures. She's quite right, but she's locking this discussion into a single interpretation of a single religion. Religion, which like all other manmade complex structures, imitates or perception of life, is not so two-dimensional. There is little to discuss with her on the point of Christianity. My point is that there are multiple translation and that al of them are followed by someone somewhere, even the ancient ones. There will always be a big gray area for debate, but Amanda is familiar with wht is generally accepted and I cannot dispute her. As for the Jews, I do think she needs to read a bit more on that religion. It's denominations are as multitudinous as Christianity and there are denominations that practice this "ungodly" mysticism. This form of Judaism is called Cabballic (Qaballic, Caballic...there are dozens of spellings and trying to spell this word really makes my head spin) and these are the very basics of Jewish mysticism. These ancient Hebrew practices, which are still followed by many denominations today, are what much of modern witchcraft is based on (including Wicca, founded by a Gardner, who was a favorite of Aleister Crowley's, and the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, cofounded by Aleister Crowley and Edgar Waite). Included in the Caballic scriptures are the examinations of the letters of the Hebrew alphabet and their mystical and elemental equivilents, and the examination, meaning and understandings of the twelve Sephira (or as they are known in Wicca, Sephiroth). Perhaps in Orthodox Judaism, divination is a no no, but that's only one group of Jew's way of looking at things. Much Jewish Caballic scripture includes alchemical symbolism, and is the first to identify the four elements and their mystical associations, including the ideology of the Perfect Fool, also known as Lapis Exillis or the Philosopher's Stone. This is the idea of the a Perfect Fool, a base and ignorant man who symbolizes the highest form of enlightenment, like Gawaine, searching for the Holy Grail, but fails to ask the question, "For whom does the Grail serve?" and so is forced to search for another seven years. To say that there is no room in Judaism for divination simply denies what is written for Judaism and demonstrates lack of understanding for what is written. Nothing against Amanda or anyone else, but instead of just looking at nothing but mainstream Judaism and the Old Testament and saying "no", try looking at the actual Jewish scriptures and seeing what they say. After all, the question was if Amanda 04/22/08 6:33pm Diane I already have. scroll all the way down to the first comments. They are mine dear. There are many scriptures both old testament and new that I have quoted and you are cordially invited to do your own homework and look them up for yourself. The thing is this..look at the QUESTION! Anyone and everyone knows that these religions are against those practices. That is the nature of this question. Not whether or not the Jews did XY or Z..not whether the bible is or is not correct or what have you..it is asking about the religions. It doesn't even ask if you think religion is man made, hell they all are. Point being, can you be a Baptist and not break the laws of your faith by engaging in astrology? No you can't. can you be a Methodist?? Nope..Jewish...absolutely not. None of these RELIGIONS allow it. That is the nature of this question, those are just a couple of scriptures that are used to preach against astrology and divination of any sort. I'll put it to you this way. If you are a Christian and you would not tell your preacher or pastor you like to get a good astrology reading..you have your answer right there. You know you are wrong. Thomas 04/22/08 6:06pm Jewish Scriptures do not consist of the Old Testament. The Old Testament is an abridged pamphlet. Jewish scriptures consist of the three books of the Zohar, the multitudinous books of the Torah and the dozen or so massive volumes of the Talmud. From these, we find the Cabbalic scriptures, which teach various forms of divnation including numerology, astrology and the study of the mysticism of letters (a Hebrew form of runecraft? The book of Aleph is a book of twenty or so chapters solely dedicated to the study of the first Hebrew letter, Aleph.) The Gematria alone, the second book of the Zohar, makes for a very interesting read. These are the books that the Christian (or, if you insist, Jewish) Old Testament is based on. The attack on Paganism was not an attack on mysticism. Just because it was against the law to worship other Gods, it doesn't mean it was against the law to practice mysticism. This is where comes the distinction between witchcraft and miracles. This anti-Paganism was used to persecute witches since the days of Constatine, but the actual ban on witchcraft doesn't come until 1684 (correct me on the date if I'm wrong), when the King James Version is commissioned. There are several verses that are mistranslated to attack witches, but the most famous verse is an excellent example. "Do not suffer a witch to live among you." Many can say whatever they want, but the word "witch" in this verse is what was translated from the Hebrew word, "caleph", which is known not to even mean "witch", but "poisoner". Next we can discuss the Gospels of Christ, many of which haven't even been included in the New Testemant. Those books don't even discuss about using magic. We can argue this until we're blue in the face but the fact of the matter is, what is written is always going to be subject to interpretation. It's going to depend on what version of the Bible you read from and how you interpret it. Like I said, this question is entirely subjective. Now for something else. I think it's time for a new poll. Pat 04/22/08 5:59am Most of the things written in the bible were written by men who were against anything that didn't coincide with how they wanted things to be. Not everything that was written down was from the Great Spirit. Men wrote down things against the old ways, because it came mostly from women. I'm not trying to convince anyone, this is what I know. Anyone working towards spirituality knows this. You don't just get to the Great Spirit(God) one way and everybody else is hellbound. That is so close-minded. The Great Spirit doesn't care how you reach the highest goal, just as long as it is done without harming anyone or anything. What is the main religions that has done more harm around the world in the past and in the present...christianity and catholicism, read back through history. What religions will do the most harm in the future...not spirituality(never has, never will). Bam Bam 04/22/08 5:26am Diane, here you go hon. And I quote from Dueteronomy: --- “When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire [an ancient occult practice], or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. For all who do these things are an abomination [detestable] to the LORD…” -Deuteronomy 18:9-12a Bam Bam 04/22/08 5:23am Diane, I believe Amanda and I both can substantiate it with actual scripture. Diane 04/21/08 5:52pm Amanda, I'm interested in what you have to say, but do wish you would back it up scripturally when you say the Bible explicitly says divining the future is "wrong." Can you back it up? Amanda 04/21/08 5:09pm You're right Bam Bam. You know the question is do these religions support it? The answer is no they don't. Does the bible have laws against it. Yes it does..all through out. Pat 04/21/08 6:29am I am not a christian, but I used to be since I was a little girl. I saw miracles, many miracles(from prayers that I prayed). I still see miracles, even though I don't claim any religion. I claim spirituality. You don't have to accept any belief system to get answers from the Great Spirit. I could never put that Infinite Spirit in a little book and just follow that. Even though there are a lot of good things in the bible that I believe, there are good things from other beliefs to pull from, also. People that believe in one thing and condemn everyone else, should take care of their own sins and unforgiveness first. Being close-minded and having blinders on is a horrible thing. Bam Bam 04/21/08 6:19am I'm fairly certain the bible say's divination is a no no. But, luckily God is forgiving to those who do it even for fun. I was reading this article and it makes some sense if anyone cares to read it. Here is it and REMEMBER Jesus is referenced because we are debating the Bible and respectfully not everyone's version of God or their beliefs. Okay here is the article --- The Bible never says fortune tellers can predict the future. It is their attempt to peer into the future through occult means that is objectionable. However, whether they can do it or not, does not make that much difference. If the person having his fortune told, believes that they can, the same end is accomplished. The person, instead of looking to God for direction, now consults fortune tellers to receive guidance for his life. As Christians we can remain confident and peaceful, knowing that God is in full control of our unseen future. Jesus Christ is the only answer for anyone who is anxious about his future. He said: (Matthew 6: 30-34) "If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more, clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, `What shall we eat?' Or `What shall we drink?' or `What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own." --- End of Article. I think everyone interprets the Bible in their own way, that's why we have so many wars and wars over religion. But, as Amanda would say...bottom line is it definitely say's we must refrain from divination and witchcraft. It also say's believe it or not we must not look to the stars or go to the stars. Amanda 04/21/08 5:24am No one actually knows how God spoke to his people. Sorry, but those details just aren't available. There are clear lines, very clear, as to who can do what. When King Saul spoke to the witch of Endor to get instructions as to what to do in some versions, older ones anyway, he was clearly out of bounds. That information did NOT come from Gods prophet. that is the entire point. Even during the inquisitions there was a difference between was was termed as a gift or message from God and what was witchcraft and from Satan. I do find it interesting that as far as I know, the gospels say nothing about it. Of course I'd have to go re-read every story Christ ever told. Diane 04/20/08 7:16pm I disagree about the Bible being clear cut on this issue. I explained already the contradictions---the Bible thinks that it's perfectly okay as long as "God's" people are the ones prophesying, or consulting oracles. The Levitical priesthood used the Urim and Thummin stones as an oracular device to divine the will of God over various issues, that's right in the Bible, in Exodus 28:30, also Leviticus 8, 1 Samuel 14:2-3, and 14:36-46. Anyone who wants to consult the Interpreter's Commentary on the Bible (a fundamentalist commentary), can do so, see page 163 So knowing this, clearly the Bible is not against consulting oracles, and anyone who disagrees is too blinded by what they want the Bible to say in order to see these verses which are in the Bible. Instead, some would rather believe that God physically spoke every time a priest or a prophet knocked on God's door. The will of God was often interpreted through heavenly signs, or through the Urim and Thummin stones. Astrology was in common usage from ancient times to the present, hence the continuous Biblical references to the sun as a symbol of God (which Joshua made stand still), stars as an allegory for generations, and star as a sign that Christ was born (there are hundreds of references to heavenly signs. What an interesting conversation this is though! Amanda 04/18/08 11:20am -snip-Judaism is another thing. This is not a difficult one to answer. Astrology is used in many Qabbalic forms. Then again, one can argue that the Qaballa started as a heretical form of Judaism. Never mind the fact that many early forms of Judaism used divination and magic-snip- Actually if you read the Old testaments only the priesthood had any sort of mystic power. This was granted by their God. Even in Judaism today this holds true. The scriptures I posted were from many translations of the bible. As far as the Roman catholic church goes, well their bible is unique unto it's self. I am sure however the Pope would not approve of astrology. Amanda 04/18/08 8:14am Bam Bam you're right. It is not allowed in either religion. I hate it for those4 that want to have their cake and eat it too, but it just does not work that way. Religion is what it is. It is structured in certain ways..all of them are and different ones have different views on things. If you are claiming to be a Christian and follow the bible, yet you want to use astrology, you're wrong. You are going against what Christianity teaches. It is a no brainer. If you don't like it, don't be a Christian. Bam Bam 04/18/08 6:12am If you follow what the Bible say's it's a no no. I don't think Judaism allows it either. Tim 04/18/08 4:14am If you want to talk about magic and its use, I believe it is incompatible with many beliefs, because of its very nature. Magic is the attempt to control and shape reality around the observer; this is a method of dominance and control; of power. The religions that are against it are as such, I think, because they advocate being one with the Source, rather than advocating the control over the Source. It all comes down to a matter of going with the flow, or trying to control the flow. Controlling reality, or the effort of doing so, whether it works or not, is more than not stemmed from the Ego, and thus is susceptible to a persons desires. So unless a person attempts to transcend the ego, the practice of Magic corrupts. When a person begins to, or accomplishes the transcendence of the Ego, they will realize that they do not need to attempt to control reality, and will simply not. Therefore, Magic is considered bad, because it stems from the desire to control. Thomas 04/17/08 6:39pm Actually, Amanda is absolutely right. If we are speaking of orthodox Christianity observing the King James version of the Bible (a badly mistranslated version, I might add), then any divining art and the worship of the YHWH, is entirely incompatible. However, if we are talking about a form of Christianity that observes a Latin translation or earlier languages (Coptic/Aramaic...etc.), such as Roman Catholic, then it depends on the specific interpretations. The King James version and those based on it are the only versions of the Bible that technically speak out against the divining arts, but there are ways of interpretting even those early forms of that are unfavorable towards divination. For example, one is not supposed put faith in divination. That can easily be interrepted as saying that divination is against the word of YHWH. This is a highly subjective question and is dependent on what denomination and version of the Bible (of both of which there is a plethora). That's why I answered "yes". Generally, it is compatable, but that depends on which form of the faith you follow. A Southern Baptist certainly could not stomach astrology, whereas some forms of Roman Catholic may have a use for some forms of divination. Also, don't forget that in the case of Roman Catholicism, the Bible isn't the only scripture that is followed. Judaism is another thing. This is not a difficult one to answer. Astrology is used in many Qabbalic forms. Then again, one can argue that the Qaballa started as a heretical form of Judaism. Never mind the fact that many early forms of Judaism used divination and magic. The simply fact of the matter is, the answer to this question is entirely dependent on what forms of these religions you follow, if any. Like I said: it's subjective. Amanda 04/17/08 5:36pm Paul apparently you didn't bother to read the scriptures I posted,all new Testament I believe. Are these two morally compatible? No, not by what is written in the bible and taught by church doctrine. Sorry for those that think it is. It isn't a matter of does it work. It is a matter of is it acceptable. No it isn't according to the foundation of that religion. That foundation is the bible. Whether it is accurate or not is moot. It says what it says. Bottom line. Paul 04/17/08 4:02pm How interesting, the blind leading the blind...they both fall into a ditch! It is quite clear that no one here knows anything about the Bible or where to go get the correct interpretation for it...a thousand people, a thousand opinion, that's not how it was meant to be. But the answers are given only to those who are sincere in their search. As for those who prefer to search in the dark, well they will reap more darkness not light. Craven 04/17/08 3:41pm Astrology would work whether your a Christian, Pagan, Satanist or Atheist... it doesn't matter who you are or what spiritual or religious beliefs you follow. If Astrology is the workings of the stars, and the stars effect how you behave or actually exist, then your spiritual beliefs will only effect this in that they might make you more aware of the effects of astrological workings. So are they compatible? I suppose it would depend on whether you want to just trust and generally put out of your mind the astrological workings that are for or against you, or if you wish to engross yourself in it and make its workings a part of your everyday life, much like you would Gods. Pat 04/17/08 2:50pm It does involve what and how people believe or not concerning God and religions and astrology. You can't talk about one without the other. I sure am glad there are no longer any witch hunts, because of fanatics, a lot of people would be tortured and murdered in horrible deaths. Some of us on here would have that happen to us...Ohhh, wait a minute, there are still witch hunts in the world today in other places. The Great Spirit(or God) is much bigger than that little book that people read. Wallander 04/17/08 11:03am The wisdom of Astrology can bring MANY wonderful things to the world of religion, & vice versa! Infact if they could somehow complement one another in a mutually cooperative spirit, we would have a very RICH spiritual world. The world of religion basically tries to deal with the MOST fundamental & difficult questions that we human beings bear with us in our HEARTs(emotions), while Astrology looks more into the OVERALL human condition with ALTRUISTIC eyes. So, together they would be able to fill in the holes that each may have, without necessarily eliminating one another. Eileen 04/17/08 10:35am I believe they are compatable. Christianity as the grounding influence and astrology as guiding influence. I have heard that the 12 signs of the zodiac represent the personalities of the 12 apostles. Amanda 04/17/08 9:44am I think some have lost sight of the actual question. It isn't about what you think God is or is not, rather do you think that astrology and Christianity and Judaism can be practice at it is acceptable?Regardless of whether or not one agrees you cannot change the doctrine and dogma of these religions. You can't make it accept something it dopes not accept and those religions do not accept any form of divination what so ever. The choice in my mind is simple, if you want one, you cannot have the other according to the set beliefs and practices.It just doesn't work like that. Tracey 04/17/08 6:46am Yes, but the Bible is made up of books that were specifically selected by men who were hungry for power and this particular version of events suited them. (one of them being Constantin) The true books of the Bible remain hidden under the Vatican or were destroyed by the Church during the Dark Ages... Peter 04/16/08 10:57am Superstition is the deviation of the worship we offer the one true God. The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of “idols”. Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints when it is necessary and in the best interest of mankind. Outside of that all forms of “divination” are to be rejected: including consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, etc, etc. These all conceal a desire for power over time, history and in the last analysis, other human beings. They contradict the honor, respect and loving fear that we owe to God alone. Pat 04/16/08 10:36am Diane, that was very good. I also believe in the saying that God has no religion. Religion is man-made, not spiritualism. It doesn't matter that the wise men came from three different countries. If it was so bad to study astrology and astronomy God wouldn't have sent them to the baby. They played a big roll in being sent by studying the stars and planets(which they called wandering stars). So if astrology is so bad(evil), why would God send them to his "son"? Trust me when I say that people who live studying astrology, palm reading, the crystal ball, tarot cards, etc. do not come to a bad end, unless they dabble in the darkness(then they may come to a bad end.) But that is still between them and The Great Spirit. It's wrong to say that people have to get messages from a prophet(or a priest or preacher). The Great Spirit talks to every single person on this whole planet. It's just that people are so brain-washed into thinking they have to go to some human for answers. If you will be silent and meditate you will have a lot of answers that you want or need. Meditation is not something evil, either. A scripture in the bible says, "Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, oh Lord, my strength and redeemer. Amen." Also another scripture says,"Be still and know that I am God." Sometimes I listen and sometimes I don't. When I don't listen there are consequences and I'll say "Man, if I had only listened to that little voice, this wouldn't have happened." When it comes to my spiritual life, I need no man or woman telling me what I should or shouldn't do. Everyone on this planet has the same opportunity. Koosh, I liked what you said also. That was good. Diane 04/16/08 8:54am The Bible is actually very contradictory on the subject. Everyone who God doesn't like practices "magic" while the people "God" chooses do his "miracles." Moses duplicates the "magic" of the court magicians, but Moses is working "miracles" of God. Prophets are not "psychic," are they? The Bible has them merely relating what "God" has shown them, then warns agaist "false" prophets (i.e. prophets who didn't get a book in the Bible.) Christ is the ultimate "magician" in the Bible, AND he says that "if you believe YOU CAN DO THESE WORKS AND MORE." He turns water into wine, heals people, prophesies, and yet these things are supposed to be evil according to the interpretation of modern day Christianity. Paul performs "miracles" as well (according to him, anyway, nobody was around to actually witness it). John on the isle of Patmos has the biggest shroom trip in recorded human history (The Book of Revelation), and he's seeing God, Christ, angels, beasts and everything else, yet his being "psychic" isn't wrong. See the thing people don't pay attention to, is that being "psychic" is only wrong with the "wrong" people are doing it. It's NOT wrong when "God's" people or "God's" prophets are doing it! How are we to know that these people are "God's" chosen ones? The winners get to write the history books, after all. THe Bible is very often slanted towards Israel in order to make all their deeds seem Godly, (even when they are not, see Genesis 34:1-34 and see what you can work out there). David, the king of Israel, commits adultery and murders and GETS AWAY WITH IT (his own son even has to pay for his father's sins instead of God striking David down and making him pay). It even says in Revelation that in the last days your children will dream dreams and your sons and daughters will have visions. It doesn't say they're going to hell for having them. So why does Saul get into trouble for consulting a psychic? Because Samuel doesn't like Saul (let's not forget that Samuel also claims to be "psychic," else he would not be able to prophesy). We need to be very careful how we interpret Scripture here folks. It's a loaded gun in the wrong hands, and religion itself is a very dicey thing. I prefer to think as Gandhi says, that "God has no religion." Mary 04/16/08 4:14am Yes and yes. The magi was led to Jesus by a star. Astrology has been here since the beginning of time. The tarot is a very old system. If one reads history they will see this has been combined for a very long time Sue 04/15/08 11:17pm Definitely NOT compatible. John 04/15/08 8:00pm You either believe in God and be guided by Him or turn to astrology and and the gamut of other hokus pokus stuff out there to guide you. One path leads to life the other to being lost. Jeff 04/15/08 7:53pm Well, in my opinion it really depends on how one uses horoscopes, tarot readings, etc. If they are used in the context of psychology as a means to help draw out answers that are already within a person's unconscious mind, then I don't see a conflict. Psychologists sometimes use visual aides and things like hypnosis when analysing a person's mind. Tarot cards can be used the same way. If they are used just for fun, like many of my friends who thumb through the horoscope section of the paper from time to time just to see if it happens to describe their lives, that too is not incompatible with organized religion. Using horoscopes or tarot readings in the context of predicting the future or fortune telling is definitely frowned upon by many religions. Just my opinion. Amanda 04/15/08 3:54pm The three wise men were definitely astrologers and yes the bible talks about much majick, sooth saying, summoning of spirits..however, it is important to take it in the context which is this. These wise men were actually not of the 'kingdom' so to speak. While majick is mentioned, you usually see those practicing it come to bad ends, such as Moses and the pharaohs court wise men, and others. If it is a message from god via his prophet, fine, if not, not fine. To me it isn't that hard. You either look at what it says do, and do it, or not. Pat 04/15/08 11:52am I really wasn't sure if I wanted to get in on this poll or not. I really can't say that astrology and religions can be morally compatible, because believing in astrology can't be down-graded and compared to religions. Religions start wars in the home, in the church, church against church, wars in individual nations, and nation against nation. Religion is all about conquering and changing. I have to say though, that there is good(light) and bad(dark) in ANY religion or belief system. It is up to each individual person the path they choose and not up to others to try to choose someone's path for them. The bible contradicts itself anyway, because there are a lot of scriptures that pertain to astrology. Who do you think the three wise men were? This is just my opinion, not trying to change anyone else's opinion. Amanda 04/15/08 8:30am You know it all depends on whether or not you claim to follow the bible and what it says. If you do, then of course this is totally out. It is written these things are not permissible at all. So if you claim Christianity and that you follow the bible it should be no small matter of common sense that scriptures say no. You can't change it mean what you want it to or ignore parts of it that doesn't suit your life styles. In Judaism and Islamic faiths..definitely out! I see things this way; if you are going to practice a faith, then practice all of it. To engage in divination and to profess to be following the bible is very much like professing to be Wiccan and yet rejecting the rede, Harm None. It doesn't work that way and in fact you are doing something entirely different. Koosh 04/14/08 4:42pm Organized religion focuses on keeping within social group norms as a definition of practicing "correctly". In organized religion, an individual's spiritual trek is discouraged to avoid "straying" too far from the "correctness" of its spiritual practice within the given group. New Age spirituality is open to focusing on an individual's life in a solitary quest for spiritual well-being and is less about "preaching". All spiritual and religious practices are designed to build up the human spirit, however human nature can warp the purpose behind the spiritual practices all in the name of obtaining power. In some cases, power-hungry leaders of organized religions get their power by creating mass FEAR (ie You're going to go to Hell if you do....FILL IN BLANK.") You see unhealthy power struggles between inter-denominational Christians over "Who is the true and correct Christian religion". In the UK, you've had the Catholics vs. protestants. In the US, I've seen Fundamentalism (Pentecostal/Born Again etc) at war with Older Conservatives (Catholic/Lutheran/Methodist etc.) about which denomination is the "REAL" Christian practice. And last but not least, warped theology is why we get people who are told not to kill by religious practice, but who have no problem killing ON BEHALF OF their religion. Amanda 04/14/08 4:26pm Deuteronomy 18:9-13 9"When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to (A)imitate the detestable things of those nations. Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Revelations 10"There shall not be found among you anyone (B)who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one (C)who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,11or one who casts a spell, (D)or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12"For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and (E)because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you. Revelation 9:20,2120 And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 and they repented not of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. I could go on and on with all the scriptures that blatantly are against any form of sorcery, divination, fortune telling,astrology, Witchcraft, etc all day long. Bottom line is no, the bible does not support it, is completely against it. I do know those that claim to be 'Christian witches and I don't mind telling you. Most folks like me stear clear of them. According to what the scriptures say, this is completely wrong and taking that particular Gods assumed power out of his hands and putting it in your own. Glad I am Pagan:)