What should be done about Iraq?

Total Voters: 522 Increase troops and do what's necessary to bring stability. 72% Do not increase troops but continue to fight for stability. 72% Start withdrawing troops in hopes that Iraqi people will take over security. 72% Abandon Iraq completely and hope for the best. 72% St.Eve 03/04/07 4:45pm I just noticed this poll now, and i was surprised to see a new post on it, but i like it, it's cool! But to answer your question rather briefly BamBam, i was ofcoarse ONLY talking about the Terrorists & the radical muslims who r actively standing in the way of the triumph of democracy in Iraq, when i suggested that they ought to be 'demoralized' somehow! It is quite obvious that these extremists & terrorists r using their own islamic faith as a "soft cushin" to lean on, when just about EVERYTHING ELSE in their ways of life, is going straight down the sh*tter! They're desperately clinging onto islam in an otherwise 100% politically-oriented struggle! And i was basically trying to give our own P*ssed off Jim in here, a helping idea to how to do the job done, IF that was incidentally what he desired so highly, because it's pretty clear & obvious that it's the radical terrorists "Achilles heel"--so to speak! But as i said, it is NOT something that i would have chosen to do myself if it were up to me...it was more like a solution coming out as a result of a brief brain-storming in the midst of a VERY intense discussion with Jim & the other Pro-war ppl in here! u understand what i mean?! Anyways i believe that most of us Anti-war ppl nowadays have pretty much given up on our political battles with the US Admin & their decisions to continue the war, and instead we're basically waiting for GWB's prez term to end in 2008, so that we could do it ourselves.... But i guess it all depends on how "smoothly" the iraqi conflict will progress during the next 1½ yrs... which is a LONG time, might i add!! ;-) Bam Bam 02/15/07 6:58pm Don't fear them. They want you to fear them and your giving into it. The latest poll is about Karma believe me these terrorists will reap what they sow it failed for Nazis and it will fail for them too. Did you know Sadaam Husseins Uncle was in the Nazi party? Read your history it's very cathartic to learn about your enemy. Did you know Sadaam idolized his Nazi Uncle? Where do you think some of these terrorist beliefs are coming from. They come from our own not so distant past. Have you seen Syriana yet? It's awful how they suck in young men to die for their cause. These young men are misguided in their faith and seek answers from snakes who only want to use them. We need to educate their youth and their people and get them to take power back and to stand up and say we're not going to take this anymore. When people stand together as a whole nation you can put down an army of terror. Watch Syriana if you haven't already, those people are fighting for their lives (not the terrorists) you be suprised they are not that different than us. St. Eve what good can possibly come from demoralizing anyones faith either good or bad? That is not the American way. Did you really mean that to demoralize? These terrorists are crazy, yes, but, Jim if someone broke into my house then yes you better duck. This is not that situation to me though. Jim, you said you feared the terrorists, go pray right now and you will find your fear fade away. God said have NO FEAR for I am with you and he is. I promise you that. St.Eve 02/03/07 10:15am The fear that u write of, is at the moment, pretty much on a decline due to 2 major reasons--among others. 1st reason being that it's become an over-used msg. by the Admin which has been the major cause behind the fact that we couldnt already pull out in 2003, nor in 2004, nor 2005, 2006, & now in 2007..! In other words, this fear factor is gradually losing its initial effects on the supports by the general populace, for a longer stay in Iraq. 2ndly, this factor is becoming increasingly overshadowed by the countless stories of failures in Iraq, and thereby pushing the boundries of ppl's patience to an absolute minimum! There's no doubt in the notion that the Admin is using up the VERY LAST resorts of patience of the ppl, on this policy, at the moment...so for ur sake i hope that things miraculously DO change for the better down in Iraq! Mind u though, i'll reserve my rights to b a BIG skeptic regarding this deeply-desired turn-around of the events in iraq! Jim 02/02/07 7:12am Anger and fear are two different things, especially in this case. Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding lies. I don't "hate" this enemy, I "fear" them because of what they have done, and what they are capable of doing. I agree that studying our enemy in the hopes to better understand them is always a good thing. Regardless of what we find however, this will not change the fact they these people believe God is instructing them to wipe out all non-Muslims. They call it Holy War, and they strongly believe that killing Infidels will secure them a place in Paradise. Nothing can placate them, and for this reason I don't see how "understanding" them better will affect any change. I'm sure you'll agree that if one of these extremists were at your doorstep you would take whatever means necessary to neutralize them, and I don't mean "talking" your way out of the threat. St.Eve 02/01/07 9:08am The thing that u need to understand Jim, is that when we finally start to stoop down to their level of barberian methods, we infact signal to the enemy that WE ARE the ones who r demoralized, which is the COMPLETE opposite of what we want to achieve! I agree with Blabla that we need to find a way to demoralize their faith which they r CLINGING onto like some possessed maniacs from the medieval ages! And to do that, we need to bring in some experts in the arts of human psychology & "manipulation"..It really takes some simple tools to do this, but it HAS TO come from some kind of an "expert" in this field, because there r some serious risks involved in a step like this that can/should not be ignored! But right now, when i read ur words which generally ALSO represents a big portion of the ppl's in the West, then it becomes certain to me that it is us who r demoralized & not them! Think about it; this is what it means when we give into our own rage provoked by our opponent! There is a really nice proverb that i found on the net(which was--funny enough--inspired by the card of the Devil in the Tarot cards) that simply said: "He who angers u, controls u!" Jim 01/31/07 1:08pm It sounds like we both want the same thing, but perhaps disagree a bit on how to achieve it. We just need to stop politicising the war and put all have into stabilizing that country and eliminating the terrorists around the world as if our lives depend on it. Some people really don't see the terrorists as a very big threat, this is where I disagree wholeheartedly. We cannot allow people like this to get their hands on WMD. Unlike most people with a conscience, they would not hesitate to wipe out millions of people with the push of a button if they could. Think of it this way, if someone broke into your house with the intent to kill your wife/kids, I guarantee even you would do anything to protect your family, and I do mean anything. This is how we need to think. This is war, and war is ugly for a reason. Trying to execute a "sensitive" or politically correct war will lead to our defeat. The terrorists are certainly not fighting a sensitive war. We cannot defeat them if they are free to fight any way they wish while we are bound by prohibitive rules that tie our hands, especially since we are fighting for our lives. The stakes are very high. Bam Bam 01/30/07 11:07am Jim, yes they are very scary and very crazy people. That's what they want us to do, to be irrational so we make mistakes. I think if we can maintain our wits about us, make calculated and strategic moves we will win in the end. But, no matter how viscious and sick these individuals act, we musn't become them. We must rise above them and demand they act right on the human plane. Craziness and irrational thought has overtaken their plight and they will eventually fail in the end. But, one thing I really think here too, is Iraq seriously needs training and they must understand they have to learn to fight this battle too. We can't be there forever. I actually heard something on a tv show the other day 24. They said everyone has the right to know God. But, no one has the right to hurt others in his name because they don't beleive exactly as they do. Or something like that. It was really profound for tv. I get what your saying though, If we shoot them with pigs blood stained bullets, but that really doens't work. That only makes us ignorant and them martyrs. They won't go to hell simply because we shot that into them. Nor will they get 75 virgins simply because they commit suicide while attempting to kill many in Gods name. Suicide is the greatest sin, and well let's face it Murder I believe is the number one commandment one should not break. In the end we all must face God and answer for our sins. I was so angry when I saw them cut that mans head off. I kept asking God why and I was so angry I wanted to hurt them the way they hurt that man. I was angry that I saw something so horrible on tv.But, I got my answer to my question later that day. God say's to turn our backs on evil. So, I won't watch their horrendous broadcasts. God is the only one that get's revenge, not us. I don't want to be one to lower myself to their standards I am proudly one of Gods children and I will fight on the side of right as I beleive you will too. I'm not a holy roller, but, I know how easy anger can be because I felt it the day that poor man was murdered. But, I also know anger is just Satan whispering in my ear trying to get me to lower myself to their standards. I enjoyed talking with you Jim. =) Jim 01/30/07 7:48am In most cases I agree with you Bam Bam. But when your survival is at stake, you must do what is necessary to neutralize the enemy or this case face certain death. This enemy saws off the heads of our people and broadcasts it to the world. They strap bombs on their own children. This is what we are dealing with, and for this reason we need to strike them where they are vulnerable. Don't you agree? This is not a game to them, they are a patient but vicious enemy and they will not quit unless we stop them. Bam Bam 01/29/07 5:55pm Jim, stooping to someone else's level has always been proven to be unsucessful. We should always govern ourselves withthe highest moral and human standards. If we don't we are no better than those that would persecute us. Jim 01/29/07 2:49pm Our soldiers should dip their bullets in pig's blood before shooting the terrorists. They would be much less likely to fight against us because their radical religion says that would close the gates of paradise for them. No 78 virgins, just hell for all eternity. We need to stoop down to their level and fight dirty if we want to win. Chertopert 01/29/07 5:19am Great observations blabla! Blabla 01/29/07 1:05am Those radical muslims believe that they r very strong in their belief & fighting-moral. Well I think that this is exactly their "Achilies heel". We have to focus on tool & means that would enable us to Dmoralize them completely! BabyFishMouth 01/28/07 3:15pm Blablabla... St.Eve 01/28/07 6:00am This is obviously a VERY delictae & sensitive issue for ALL OF US who were somehow traumatized by the events of 9/11, & therefore VERY understandable that we somehow would want to respond to those nightmarish events! However it is also of the utmost importance that we do not give into this feeling of rage, because then we'll b playing by THEIR rules! Im quite aware of the fact that there r a relatively large number of RADICAL muslims who have these PSYCHOPATHIC tendencies within them, and that they HAVE TO somehow b contained 1 way or another! Actually i'd lable these ppl as "social misfits with Neanderthal-like tendencies" who obviously lack the EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE that would ultimately enable them to control & contain their own feelings of anger, and importantly to give them a sense of EMPATHY! But when ure dealing with such examples of emotionally-handicapped ppl, u need 1st & foremost to somehow help them remember their own humanity, i.e. their own sense of EMPATHY, which would take a great amount of patience & wisdom on our part. Once we've succeeded in establishing this very common human trait in these ppl, then we'll automatically succeed in making them REGRET what/who they were like previously, and once they reach this stage, we then need to encourage them to start to thrive on their BETTER human traits! Yeah, call me a naive blue-eyed idiot, but i believe this is THE BEST WAY for us to PERMENANTLY "win their hearts & minds", instead of our militaristic approach at the moment which as i said earlier, is THEIR WAY of "communicating" & NOT OURS! In other words--which is a lot more cynical than a lot of u--we should just let them feel like that theyre "better warriors", but at the same time, make them feel they were "less human(e)" than us! Thats the end of my 2 Cents. ;-) Flip 01/28/07 5:56am No reasonable person will support terrorists. During the last 6 years, however, by declaring 'war on terrorism' the american president has done exactly what these terrorists want: to be fed by the hatred of the populations that suffer from the way they have been treated by western companies, countries and politics. For most people of the South there is no escape from hunger, violence, corruption and so on. The terrorist that attacked the west, therefore find sympathy amongst the poor. The war on terror is just another excuse for repression by the government of quite some countries It is almost impossible to bring western values to a country where factions hate each other so intensely as in Iraq and Afghanistan, hate not only stimulated by Iran but also by terrorist groups and probaly other neighbouring countries. Given the fact that American troops are there, withdrawal right away will leave Irak to become a country of robbers as Somalia has been for a long time. Now it is a responsibility of the USA to solve this insolvable problem. Fighting harder, kill more people is not going to be effective. Efforts to winn the trust of ordinary people, province by province might help. It is going to cost many more lives of american soldiers, and a lot more money, but it is the only right thing to do. And if you need more troops to accomplish the trust - so be it. A sad conclusion maybe, but considering the fact that many Iraqi were better off under Sadam Hoesein, and that the USA dethroned the dictator it is the only right thing to do. I do not support president Bush, but you cannot let the Iraqi people sink into the atrocities of a fully escalated civil war. Tess 01/28/07 5:34am The Allies have lost the war in Iraq. We should start to withdraw at the end of this year and be out of Iraq completely by the spring of 2008. We should tell the Iraqi government and the Iraq people when we are withdrawing so they can make prepartions to stand on their own two feet. But we should still give them the money needed to rebuild their country. Hallie 01/27/07 8:04pm why send more peopleover there just so they can die to. BUSH STINKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! St.Eve 01/27/07 10:02am Well said Bam Bam! And NO Jim, contrary to whatever u might think, i actually DO want us to win, but my idea of how to get there is "slightly" different than "yours"(the same stuff that we've been bombarded with by the politicians)! Bam Bam 01/27/07 9:21am I think it's time to end this poll. Jim, I agree with you, but, I don't think St. Eve meant for us to "literally" fail. But, you're slightly off on one point. They won't become a terrorist state, they already are with billions of oil dollars to fund their horrendous acts and the US wants to make sure we can control the oil advantage. Make no mistake, we must help those people and finish the job right, but, let's not pretend that were not their for the oil advantage too. I think we all have wonderfully diverse opinions and no one is wrong, we only have different truths from a different points of view. Let's remember we're all on the same team even though we don't all agree with the game. We all have the same goal. PEACE. Jim 01/27/07 8:23am Wow St. Eve, so you admit you want us to lose. You actually want democracy in Iraq to fail. You want all those millions of Iraqi's who turned out to vote (twice I might add), to get slaughtered. You don't care that the place will become a terrorist state with billions of dollars of oil resources at their disposal to fund attacks against the world. You are either a Muslim Extremist yourself, or you just don't believe that these Muslim Extremists are a threat. Either way, you want us to lose this war so you are Anti-American and an enemy of this country. St.Eve 01/27/07 7:15am Well thats ok Jim..ure entitled to believe what u want to believe in this case. So long as u also r aware of the irony in the fact that a victory for us now, will bring us defeat in the long run! All of our values out here in the West will eventually dissolve themselves in a way that we will one day look even worse than the Iranian regime in the 80's..much worse than they ever did themselves back then! We need to start thinking outside of the box here & to look at this whole situation from a different vantage pt. instead of the current 2-dimensional political view presented to us by GWB & his men! The cost of a "victory" here will be A LOT more than what we can ever bargain for at this pt. in time! Things r no longer as black&white as they used to be back in the Cold War era[for better or WORSE]! We need to think alot more far-sighted about this, than the way we r doing right now. The saying that goes "sometimes u gotta lose to win" is incredibly apt in this case! Jim 01/27/07 4:33am Hi SS, we actually tried imposing sanctions on Iraq for several years but that did not stop some countries including China and others from purchasing their oil and engaging in trade. Even the UN was complicit in funding Saddam with billions of dollars through the Oil for food program. While Saddam got rich off the UN Oil for Food, the people of Iraq suffered greatly. Millions lived in extreme poverty and hundreds of thousands either starved to death or died from common illnesses because of the lack of meds. Getting rid of Saddam was the best way to stop this, not to mention the hundreds of thousands of people that were found murdered in mass graves etc. St. Eve, you can condemn our actions all you want, but that does not change the fact that even under the current violent conditions, the people of Iraq are much better off. They want democracy, their massive voter turn out proves that. We cannot let a handful of terrorists funded by Iran/Syria dissuade us from completing this mission. SS 01/26/07 10:06pm I am an South African and I suggest that the whole world should put sanctions against Irac, like they did to my country during the apartheid years. Completely cut them off from trade, sport etc Let them rot! Mary 01/26/07 6:06pm Bush has no idea what he got everybody! into take care of your people at home first? St.Eve 01/26/07 11:48am If i knew that my death had directly caused the further deaths of over 100,000 other innocent men, women, children, i'd be restlessly turning in my grave right now! The way we've used the victims of 9/11 to further a radically different political cause, not only is disrespectful, it's a totall disgrace! Apart from that, our own ignorance towards the voice of the rest of the international communities & countries, UN, & what not, is exactly what has come back to bite our own a s s right now, and it won't stop until we finally realize the mistakes that we've made along the way, and ultimately recognize the fact that NOBODY's perfect, including us out here in the West! Time to get off our high horses once & for all, and start seeing ourselves as just 1 part of a larger international community, who's each living & striving for a peaceful & serene existance among one another, DESPITE OF OUR IMMEDIATE DIFFERENCES(which mind u, is what makes us so diverse & unique). Let the flames of 9/11 go out for good& instead maintain those victims' honour, spirit & memories as tokens of peace around the globe! Jim 01/26/07 10:41am Well said Johnny, finally a voice of reason. Johnny 01/26/07 7:38am 123, I appreciate that you want to provide a different opinion, but I just couldn't let you get away with the statement that America invades countries "without a reason" as well as liken us to terrorists. You may not agree that the reasons were sufficient enough to warrant the actions we took, but that is debatable and very much open to discussion. Anybody can say in hind sight that we should not have invaded Iraq given what we know today, but clearly there were many solid reasons some of which I already listed for you. Right now the "insurgents" we are fighting in Iraq are composed of Iranian/Syrian fighters, as well as Muslim extremists that will fight democracy at all costs so that they can use Iraq as a base from which to launch more of the attacks we have seen around the world. Don't forget how many countries have been hit or almost hit, including Spain, Russia, Turkey, India, Saudi Arabia, Britain, etc. Many of these countries that have been attacked are not even part of the armed forces in Iraq and they are still a target! We need to squash them now, starting with Iraq, or face a much bigger threat down the road. 123 01/26/07 6:16am I'm not Muslim, in fact I live in a country who has had problems with Muslims before and I'm not suggesting that they are saints and Americans are evil. Not at all. I was just trying to give you the other side of the story. What the whole world knows and most Americans seem completely oblivious to... St.Eve 01/26/07 6:01am Johnny im sorry to have to say this once again, the things ure saying here, are the same kind of stuff we've been hearing the Admins. say eversince the 9/11 attacks..there's nothing new or useful in those so-called "facts"! u know, the ironic & tragic thing about the 9/11 is that there r some ppl(such as urself) who r STILL trying almost desperately to "spread the flames & fire" of the 9/11!! How does that feel..to be in the same boat as those 19 sociopath terrorists?!! Somebody else in here said something really nice, that we're giving them way too much attention, & it's EXACTLY what they want us to do! Anyhow the attack against Afghanistan was a step towards the right direction, but as soon as Bush mentioned the name of Iraq, u immediately KNEW that it was the one opportunity that GWB & his ppl had been waiting for impatiently until then! Julie 01/26/07 4:33am I dont think the previous writer is an extremist. They are entitled to their views and quite frankly I agree with them. I live in the UK and am a white british person. What Tony Blair did makes me sick and the fact he backed George Bush who WAS following in daddy's footsteps makes it worse. America had NO RIGHT to invade Iraq and in my opinion George Bush wants world domination. Who else would trapse around the globe demanding other people get rid of their weapons? He should realise that he doesnt run their country and if he wants to set by example, get rid of the weapons America has.....but no, he wont do that. Good opinion 123, you are entitled to it. Johnny 01/26/07 2:43am OK, who ever wrote the last comment (123) may very well be a Muslim Extremist. Americans don't invade countries for no reason. The whole world agreed that Iraq was a threat before the invasion. British and American intelligence agencies were convinced that Iraq had Weapons of Mass Destruction. Even Vladamir Putin of Russia and Chirac of France said Saddam had WMD. No one ever accused Iraq of orchestrating 9/11, but there were clear connections to terrorist organizations including Al Qaida. Iraq was in violation of 17 UN resolutions. They were also shooting at British/American aircraft AND funding families of suicide bombers. This is all documented in the 9/11 Commission report, so PLEASE stop saying that we just woke up one day and decided for the heck of it to invade another country. Reasonable people can argue that the war was mismanaged, but to say that Americana's are terrorists and that we wage war for no reason is absolute BULL. Don't mess with the US. 123 01/26/07 1:39am This is really sad. Why did they invade Iraq in the first place? Who decided Americans have the right to invade any country they feel like invading without a reason? Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and had no biological weapons. And even if they did, Americans have worst weapons and are a threat to every other country in the world (since they can just attack anyone without a reason) and nobody has invaded them. For obvious reasons of course: they are afraid! Americans think they can just terrorize other nations with their big army and weapons and nobody can do anything about this. So who is the real terrorist now? Tina 01/25/07 9:43pm Drop the A bomb St.Eve 01/25/07 6:17pm Yes, your suggestion might just ALMOST be a feasible one Tara, although im more inclined to believe that your timelines may be a little too far ahead into the future, given the enormous political pressure GWB is under right now. Heck, it's not even clear what lays ahead in the next 3 months within the American political arena, let alone in 2008! But for your sake, i do hope that it more or less happens around the same time and in the same fashion as you've suggested..:-) Tara 01/25/07 4:21am I think we should bring about as much stability as possible and start to withdraw troops from Iraq in early 2008 and by the end of 2008 be gone completely. But we should still give the money and resources needed to the Iraqi people to rebuild their country - after all it is the least we can do after all the damage we have caused. S.ph.s 01/24/07 12:50pm Having the ambitions of bringing stability & order in a region is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ballpark than having the SOLE ambitions of destabilizing & demoralizing an established order..therefore the insurgents r in A LOT BETTER position than us because their only aim is to see the whole order of things fall apart from another which already is suffering from being too vulnerable & unstable. This fact alone, has been the most decisive factor tipping the balance in their favor until now, eventhough they've been the underdogs the whole time, and in the final outcome we will NOT come out as the victors of this conflict unless/until we somehow change this very condition. Jim 01/24/07 10:03am The US and its allies need to support this effort without backing down. Just this week Iran's leader said "the United States and the Zionist regime of Israel will soon come to the end of their lives". Just a couple of weeks ago we captured Iranian nationals in Iraq fighting our soldiers. They are actively thwarting our efforts and should be held accountable. All civilized nations face a frighting threat from the extremist Muslim people. This deadly agenda started WAY before our invasion of Iraq in 2003. The only way to stop it from growing is to get rid of the dictatorships that fund and promote terrorism. Iraq is the focal point and for this reason losing in Iraq is not an option unless our freedom and way of life is not important to us. I realize that Bush is not popular, but we need to support him at the very least on this issue alone. This should not be a political issue. We need to remove the restrictions and allow our military to do their job. St.Eve 01/24/07 7:39am That was exactly my point as well 1IraqiVoice! Thanks sir. 1 Iraqi Voice 01/24/07 6:35am The ironic(and tragic) thing is that for the last 5-6 years, ALL the atrocities, distructions, violance and the terrors executed by the terrorists and pro-terrorists, have been heavily OVERshadowed by the manifestation of the arrogance and the EGO of US which has been coming directly from the current American Administration's policy-making. This is tragic because it ONLY fuels the cause of the insurgents and the terrorists more, and gives them the momentum they would otherwise NOT have had, if the global community had been preserved right after the 9/11. Brenda Rudolph 01/24/07 6:27am Bring the troops home bring them back alive. Tillie 01/23/07 10:54pm We are out there fighting somebody elses war and getting our own hurt and for what St.Eve 01/23/07 10:20pm Substance=Content St.Eve 01/23/07 9:11pm This is certainly NOT aimed at the substance of what u've been saying several times now, when mentioning about the endless sufferings of the Iraqi ppl...i mean, u make it almost sound as if we in the West were planning to pack our bags already tonight and fly out of Iraq & back home tomorrow!! Mark my words, it's going to be NONE OTHER THAN a gradual withdrawl, should that day arrive when US decide to shift her own policies! So u needn't fear anything on that regard! It has more of a strategically-POLITICAL, diplomatic & OFFICIAL significance for the region, ultimately preventing a collision-course with the IRI which we have been experiencing lately!! Mind u, i couldnt help noticing that Bush infact did use some "semi-war" rhetorics against Iran in his speech earlier tonight..! But with regards to what BamBam & Goldie have posted here so far; i agree with MOST of what u've both said..great job! Goldie 01/23/07 6:04pm Name calling and ugly words are a sure sign weakness. I don't care how many times you have seen combat. Seeing combat does not give you a corner on the truth. You also do not have to be in a war zone to see the effects of combat; many people who fought in WWII came home totally ruined from the experience, spending the rest of their lives as alcoholics. Was that really winning the war? History will be the judge our actions...in fact, history already has provided some insight during Vietnam and we still have not learned. Most of the Iraqi people really do not want us there. We have put ourselves right in the middle of their internal affairs...in a part of the world that has been very unstable for centuries. What made us think it was going to change this time? We are there because of their oil. If this is not true, then why aren't we also in Africa dealing with the beyond-cruel dictators there? And how is it that we do not have a more effective relationship with the UN? Back in the 70's, the Iraqis were our allies. We even trained Iraqis to help us fight Iran. Muslim religious fundamentalism was not nearly as strong in the latter 20th century until Desert Storm. When people are scared, they go to what they know and who can give them safety. Lots of Iraqi women lost their human rights after Desert Storm. How many more people have to die before this is over? Certainly we are justifiably mad about 9-11. We have now lost more than the number of Americans that were killed during 9-11 also in Iraq. The Iraqis have lost a huge sector of their nation...650,000 since the war started. We have lost just over 3000 since the war started. Our national debt is $600 billion. We could have spent that money developing alternative energy resources and creating new strategies for diplomacy. We cannot afford to live in an exclusive world of "us" and "them" anymore. The world is just too small a planet for war. Ethics and morality have lagged way behind our technology. BritGirl 01/23/07 8:09am We have been in Iraq for four years in March this year, most people thought our troops would be home by now. We must do what we can to stabilize the country, the Iraqi people have suffered enough. Peace Is Tougher Than War! 01/23/07 6:40am This song has gradually become a "traditional" anti-war song. Nevertheless it does say all the things that many people feel nowadays with regards to the Iraqi situation. I would like to also add here that this is MY OWN interpertation of the song, and it absolutely does NOT have to have anything to do with what the very members of this band may mean about the Iraqi conflict, in particular! So I hope that they are not held responsible for MY OWN initiative of posting their song here! Thanks! Song: "It's a Mistake"[1983] Artist: Men At Work Jump down the shelters to get away The boys are ****in' up their guns Tell us general, is it party time? If it is can we all come Don't think that we don't know Don't think that we're not trying Don't think we move too slow It's no use after crying Saying It's a mistake, it's a mistake It's a mistake, it's a mistake After the laughter as died away And all the boys have had their fun No surface noise now, not much to say They've got the bad guys on the run Don't try to say you're sorry Don't say he drew his gun They've gone and grabbed old Ronnie He's not the only one saying It's a mistake, it's a mistake It's a mistake, it's a mistake Tell us commander, what do you think? 'Cos we know that you love all that power Is it on then, are we on the brink? We wish you'd all throw in the towel We'll not fade out too soon Not in this finest hour Whistle your favourite tune We'll send a card and flower Saying It's a mistake, it's a mistake It's a mistake, it's a mistake ps- Watch the video at this site: youtube happy/watch?v=D1B1-PusbLU&mode=related&search= Bam Bam 01/22/07 2:59pm There's alot of energy being expended by certain people to get their point accross. Before you reply nastily read everything that everyone wrote. I said we need to finish this war and teach the people of Iraq to fight and live free. I also believe this was Bush's agenda from the start. I've always disagreed with many aspects of this war, but, I'm of the opinion now that it's too late to leave, which is why I said it's what Bush planned all along. You don't have to agree with what people write, but, at least us "Dems" can get a word accross without insulting our fellow man. Bush needs to get the job done and do it more efficiently. I fully support our troops and what they're doing, but, I also want them home alive already. Maybe veterans of foreign wars have more experience on these matters, but, it's not just you who gets the vote. Some of us who aren't around your day to day events don't see what you see. But, that doesn't mean we have to believe as you do either. Yes, we should have finished this war in 91 when my son's father was there fighting it. But good old Bush dropped the BALL on the Hussein instead of the Bomb!!!!!!! God Bless America. S.ph.s. 01/22/07 10:51am Well excuse us for not agreeing with u guys's side..& sorry for breathing!!!Somehow i find the Syrian/Iranian presence in Iraq alot easier to understand than us marching halfway around the globe & entering their region! What else did we honestly expect?! Anyways there's no use discussing with ppl who r obssessively out of their elements as u guys r at the moment! Perhaps it is meant that we go all the way with this 'stupidity rush' and at the end learn some valuable things from it, the hard way!!So be it! But im definitely curious to know where this discussion would lead, in saayyy..no more than 3 months from now! ;-D Jim 01/21/07 4:13pm Funny how the same people always touting freedom of speech and "God given rights" are the same ones telling us to pull out of Iraq and give up on democracy. Twice the Iraqi people risked their lives and came out by the millions to vote for democracy despite all the violence. If we pull out now and let that country fall to Iran/Syria and the terrorists, then we deserve the fall-out that will inevitably happen right here on our own soil. Osama Bin Laden was right about us, we cannot stomach casualties even when the stakes are high and our country's national security is at risk. S.ph.s. 01/21/07 9:47am The censored word was: R E T A R D E D! S.ph.s. 01/21/07 8:55am U'd think after 6 long yrs of on-going discussions, u'd finally get to hear something refreshing or new from the REPS, but NOT EVEN in ur wildest dreams man..it's all the same old crappy soup that theyve been brewing eversince the start of the Millenium, and they keep on repeating it as if they were mentally ****ed! FYI if u go & read my words carefully once again, u'll see that i never even came close to calling Bush an enemy..but i will excercise my god-given rights of speech ANYDAY ANYTIME ANYWHERE to say what ive always said about him as the prez of the US..he lacks the political intelligence & uniqueness that many of his predecessors possessed before him! Tom 01/21/07 2:54am I just love these left-wing cowards who think that pulling out of Iraq and blaming Bush for the terrorists' is the answer. WRONG!!!!!! I have 25 years in the Air Force and have been over there--you want to stop all of this trouble--keep KILLING the insurgents--and then kill them some more. The Iraqis WANT FREEDOM--they are WILLING to DIE for it. Unlike the left-wing commies who would not lift a finger to defend themselves in this country . Cindy Sheehan is an asshole and a disgrace to her son--she is a traitor to this country. You have Every right to disagree with the admins policy-that is called DEMOCRACY--what the Iraqis are dying for. You disgusting Dems bury your heads in your rectum and click your heels 3 times that the terrorists won't attack you. SORRY--their whole basis of ideology is to destroy christians and jews--we are the infidels to them. This is my 2nd Gulf War--we should have finished it in"91---so much for the Liberal means of "Let's just talk to them"--BS--wake up you cowards--we ARE AT WAR--A JUSTIFIED WAR. S.ph.s. 01/20/07 10:49pm Nope, sorry..we won't! Too late! J.M.J. 01/20/07 9:44pm It is clear that for some people they HAVE to be reminded over and over about 9/11 and who did the attacking and who is still doing the attacking and who has avowed to keep attacking until the western civilization is wiped out or converted to islam. Ya, everyone wants to get back to "the good old days", and maybe blaming Bush whom one can see is easier then blaming the real enemy who is TERRORISTS and MUSLIMS. Wake up people! You have an enemy to the DEATH! Bam Bam 01/20/07 3:30pm This ones for "NOT" who addressed my last comment. Question for you..were you not present for the last election? Bush shamefully made sure to remind everyone of the Terrorists and of their deeds on 9/11. I loved through it, how dare you remind me of it. He even made election commercials out of the footage. So, don't tell me I am a conspiracy theorist, everyone against Bush is a conspiracy theorist if we don't agree with him. Yes, terrorists are there I was present during 9/11. Bush has used 9/11 to further his agenda. I predicted before his election we'd be at war 6 months after he was in office. We are still at war and we need to find a proper end to it. No conspiracy here, Terrorists have been given free reign by the media and the more we watch the more they will do. You stick to the facts yourself my comment was pulling out of the war and my opinions about Bush are dead on in my opinion. St.Eve 01/19/07 11:59pm It's true LBM that the Iraqy ppl still need our helps, and im quite certain WILL continue to recieve help, mainly from the American troops plus the handful other countries down there, and eventually also UN, when the troops start withdrawing from the country..there's NO doubt in mind about that! But it is however VERY imparative that the American troops start to evacuate the country OFFICIALLY because of the extreme political tensions that r building up in the region every single day as we speak, and here im mainly refering to the political momentum that the IRI has been gaining in the region, in particular the past 3-4yrs as a direct result of the Americans' pro-longed stay in the country! Seems to me the more proactive we've been approaching the whole situation down there, the more unbearable the circumstances have become for the majority of the Iraqies! AGAIN im not suggesting a SWIFT withdrawl from the country..nevertheless a withdrawl it WILL come down to, sooner or later, and in my opinion the sooner the better! LBM 01/19/07 7:51pm I've talked to military people who have been there. They say the general population want the military there and to help them obtain peace and order to their country. It is the terrorist who do not want the military there. The USA biggest mistake at first was sending enough people AT THE BEGINNING to secure the borders. Now it may be too late. Remember the saying the Early bird catches the worm... guess we didn't secure the borders fast enough and not enough worms were caught! Not 01/19/07 6:03pm What? No one said Bush was a good politician, but he is not the enemy, the terrorists are! We are faced with an enemy that will give their lives and their children's lives to kill you and your family. Really, who cares about getting the world to love you. Its life and death people! Look what 19 fanatics did to over 3000 people with box cutters on 9/11! With today's advanced weapons, all it takes is a handful of fanatics to killing tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousdands of people. WAKE UP! St.Eve 01/19/07 1:45pm If our prez Bush was a good politician, he would have used the 9/11 attacks to his own(America's) advantages!! He had the WORLD on his side, because EVERY SINGLE HUMAN BEING around the globe who saw the 9/11 events, felt a profound empathy & sympathy for America at that time..&he could/should have just used this momentum to his(America's) advantages!!But no no no, he& his men were so compelled to follow their OWN agendas, which has brought us to where we are right now! The fact of the matter is that if Bush had shown a "forgiving" image of America right after the 9/11, he would have made sure that the global sympathy towards America would have stayed as solid as STEEL right now, and for many many yrs to come!! The fact of the matter is that both the oil & the war industry were experiencing a huge economical inflation around the time of 9/11..Hell, ive seen several interview footages of the widows, mothers, brothers, sisters of the 9/11 victims who were disgusted by the fact that the deaths of their loved ones were being used as means for propoganda for the politicians OWN agendas! Their deaths are NOW invain..they could have been instaed the "martyrs of PEACE around the world" by now, & NO ONE would have dared forget about 9/11..but right now, all we want is to run away screaming as soon as somebody brings it up..It's REALLY sickening to think about! Not 01/19/07 12:49pm You got the wrong guy there Bam Bam. The terrorists are the ones that use "fear" to advance their agenda, not Bush. Hence the word TERROR in terrorist. Its like calling a police officer a bully for standing up to criminals. Stop with the conspiracy theories. Stick to the facts. Terrorists like Al Qaeda and the Taliban use fear and hate to promote an agenda of mass death and destruction. Let's not forget 9/11, and all the attacks and would be attacks in Europe and elsewhere before and after 9/11. Don't lose sight of who our true enemies are or they will destroy you. That's not a fear tactic, that's a fact. Bam Bam 01/19/07 8:40am Okay, this is not a call to every Bush supporter. There;s always going to be terrorists and bully's. Getting them under control can it be done? Maybe. But, I believe we need to slowly withdraw and train Iraq to stand on their own. Bush wants us to think that sending more troops is the only way. Don't think for a second he didn't plan it this way. He's been leading us to think what he's wanted us to think all along. Using fear as a tool. It's been six years since an attack and yet they keep telling us more attacks are coming if they stop fighting. Which is how he got re-elected to a second term. God say's we should not be fearful and to turn our back on evil. We were not born with Fear, we learned it. I am not afraid to pull out of Iraq slowly and teach these folks how to defend themselves and fight to live FREE. It's a sad state that most folks talk about what's happening to the people, but, the truth that is disguised by politics is that we are there for OIL and the ability to control it. We have given the terrorists too much TV time and they love it and it has drawn attention to their cause. Our President has gotten into a war of words with the evil doers. What President in history has done that? Turn your back pon them and don't watch. It's like paying attention to a bad child. They will keep doing it if they have your attention. If the world shows they no longer have our attention perhaps they'll try another way...a better way to communicate. Jim 01/18/07 6:15pm Unfortunately S.ph.S is right about public opinion changing and the odds of our success being tied to this. For the sake of our civilization a miracle IS what we need. Osama Bin Laden was apparently correct in his assumption that the "West" could not stomach casualties. We are losing this war and unfortunately a defeat in Iraq will confirm their suspicions. What the public does not understand is that we are at war with people who are taught from birth that killing non-Muslims in large numbers will secure a special place for them in paradise. Pulling out of Iraq will fuel their ambitions 100 fold. With today's nuclear and chemical weapons, we cannot afford to let these barbarians get their way. S.ph.s. 01/18/07 2:13pm Even if that was true and there was a massive increase in the number of troops and Billions of Pounds/Dollars invested in the very cause that u speak of BritGirl, there is unfortunately also a time factor here which can not be ignored at this pt. in time. With the number of the oppositions against the war growing every single day both in America and also else where--in specific in Iraq and the whole M.E--plus the rest of the world, the future of such an ambitious undertaking would be in jeopardy, which would ultimately prevent the troops to do their job done effeciently! Unless we are going to witness a near-miracle sometimes within the near future, this whole ordeal is bound to be met with an overwhelming demand by the opposition to change the direction of the current situation in Iraq and to come up with a definite time frame/deadline, to pull the troops out of the country relatively soon. In short I don't believe ur ideas are realistic enough in the long run. Brit Girl 01/18/07 9:38am We have caused multi-billions of pounds or dollars (which ever your currency is) worth of damage in Iraq and it is estimated to cost the tax-payers £45 Billion pounds (British Sterling) to rebuild and repair Iraq. It is our fault and we have to face the consequences, like I said before the Iraqi people did not ask to be invaded and their country destroyed. We have to clean up the mess and help give the Iraqi people the future and life they deserve. We have caused enough heartache and damage lets not cause the Iraqi people even more reasons to dislike us. St.Eve 01/18/07 7:50am I couldnt disagree more with Marlene, Jack & Zena! Seems to me that u r all--1 way or another--been badly influenced by the policies of terror & paranoia, which we were all being bombarded with until just very recently..fortunately this political tone has changed somewhat though! The fact of the matter is that it is not only the Liberals who voice a "gradual withdrawl" policy, but ALSO anybody else with a political IQ of 50...because a "good politician" nowadays(whether Liberal or Conservative) KNOWS that the option of "eye for an eye" does NOT exist in REAL politics(heck, i suspect that even GWB knows that,but was focused SOLELY on the prospects of scoring more oil, when he initiated the war in Iraq)..the ironic thing here is that right after the 9/11, it would have been next-to-impossible for the terrorists to repeat a new gruesome attack against the States, but after the war started in Iraq, GWB made sure that such a threat against the States stayed alive, with his shady policies!! Both the US & the rest of the West could have just invested all those resources to build a super-tight domestic defense systems against any eventually new attacks, which mind u, if u ask me, was highly un-probable..atleast against the States! U can only do such a thing once! Unfortunately the politicians in charge(incl. Bush) in reality have had a TOTALLY outdated war vision stemming from WWII! Zena 01/18/07 6:51am They (terrorists) will come after our "noses", unless we fight them on their own territory. Pam 01/18/07 6:47am They have lived like this for ever and will continue to do so . this is all they know and all they will probobly ever know i dont know why we keep wasting canadian money and lives lets just keep our nose out of it Astounded!!! 01/17/07 10:21pm I wonder how many people on this earth understand the number of iraqi women and children that have died as a result of trade sanctions imposed by the so called world powers in this country (iraq) that could have been assisted in so many other ways...we only get what we look for in this life and is has never been truer than in iraq...pls people do some more homework..be aware of (all) your countries policies and their effects and then vote in your country that is supposedly a world leader and make your voices heard by voting with concience...instead of sitting back and being proactive in attitude in hindsight..set the benchmark for the world and take responsibility for the decisions made by those you let assume positions of responsibility...encourage solutions that do not perpetuate intolerance and aggression! Jack 01/17/07 9:07pm This is a fight to the death. Muslims, civilization's enemies, want to take over the world or die trying. Marlene 01/17/07 8:51pm Maybe after 9/11 we should have flown a white flag and invited Osama Ben Ladin to take over our country along with his cohort, and let him forced everyone to become muslim or be beheaded, and all women wear burkas! That should satisfy all those who want peace at all cost! Eko1 01/17/07 6:44pm No, about serch of troops, there was a movie 30 or some years ago name "The derty Dozen"...., remember? A coronel during WWII ...and so on .... Yo get my drift? Mary scott 01/17/07 3:50pm And get president bush from out of the white house because he doesnt knows what he;s doing St.Eve 01/17/07 1:06pm Ure right Brit Girl...atleast when it comes to assessing the source of the crisis in Iraq being primarily the poor foreign policies on the part of the US & UK...but regarding ur conclusion, i disagree with u PARTIALLY! The fact of the matter is that NOBODY is going to abandon Iraq entirely on its own, if we were to be following the aforementioned 3rd option, hypothetically speaking! Iraq will continue to be supported and aided with whatever means necessary to keep its recentlly-established democracy...however it is imparative that both the US and UK give out the signal that they r officially withdrawing their troops in a gradual tempo, latest by the end of--say--this yr.! This will give Iraq plenty of time to adjust and prepare for the new situation, and to start rising for the occasion, which would be an excellent way for the country itself and the young democracy to take its first steps towards independence. Almost like a baby who's trying to learn how to walk for the very 1st time..sure, it's going to be a bit bumpy and messy, but the child is nevertheless going to start walking sooner rather than later. Rita 01/17/07 9:06am I honestly think America is getting in issues it should`nt. Enough killings please. Brit Girl 01/17/07 8:14am I think we should have never invaded Iraq but I stand by what I said - we should stay until we have clened the mess up - after all it was primarly the USA and the UK that created it. St.Eve 01/17/07 7:30am Im absolutely for the #3 option stated in the multiple question! It is also worth mentioning the factual series of events here, that the iranians actually started to pursue their ambitions for a nuclear energy, WHEN realising that they were practically surrounded from both sides of their borders by the American troops, AFTER the Iraqi war had begun!! i mean, do NOT get me wrong, im definitely NOT on the side of the IRI but i also believe that IF we really r sincere enough about a genuine solution to the current situation down there, we need to be bold&honest enough to call the shovel for a shovel & issue our policies from a REALISTIC p.o.v., which will go a LONG way instead of the currently self-denial politics by the US and UK. I also believe that a little display of trust & goodwill would NEVER hurt, even if it is shown towards our own enemies! By starting to gradually evacuate the forces, we r actually signaling to the Iranians/terrorists that WE ARE the good guys, and that they now have missed out on their once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to have a peaceful region WHILE we WERE down there to help them. It ALWAYS pays to keep the morals and ethics on YOUR side, rather than EVER compromising them with things of a lesser-value! George 01/16/07 11:51pm what ever happend . happends we go to bring peace to the world before america full apart Jive 01/16/07 9:46pm I agree with Goldie that it was a mistake to go into Iraq. That said, now that we are there, if we were to pull out troops and abandon the mission, the country would descend into utter kaos and people would be slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands... perhaps millions. Terrorist organizations would flourish and would use Iraq as a base like it did in Afghanistan, and in time would launch attacks on European Countries and eventually the United States. Iran and Syria already fund the insurgency and we should concentrate on cutting off their support. Goldie 01/16/07 6:07pm I am half Brit and half American and I don't vote for any of these suggestions. I see Vietnam happening all over again in many ways. Unfortunately the US has a president that was protected from the Vietnam War, so he doesn't know the reality of it. We should have never started that war. We have way too much technology today to start a war. We need to spend more money and effort developing our communication strategies technology and building relationships with other nations. We cannot afford to be cowboys with guns anymore. Agent Orange and Napalm was horrible in Vietnam. Diplomacy and economic sanctions are much better. We are leaving such a horrible mess for our kids and grandkids. When I see troops in photos of the Vietnam War, I remember buddies in school that didn't come back...and the mother who wore her son's army fatigues for 14 years after he was killed. She wandered aimlessly until a truck hit her on a freeway. It was a mercy killing, really. When I see troops in photos of the Iraq War, I see my children.... I have not slept very well at all since this war began. There are no winners in a war. Only losers and really bad losers...and a huge mess to clean up and a lot of mental illness and grief. Tonejihad 01/16/07 2:49pm Very true Brit Girl. Peace. Marlene 01/16/07 11:17am Ditto to Jim Brit Girl 01/16/07 4:52am I am British and I agree with you Jim. Britain and America went to war and I say we both should stay until the job is done, we created the mess so therefore it is our job and obligation to clean it up and bring stability to Iraq and the Iraqi people. After all the people of Iraq did not ask to be invaded and have their country turned upside down. Jim 01/16/07 3:41am The US must follow through with what they started. If they should fail and Iraq falls into Iranian/terrorist control, the next target will be the Europe and the United States. The US, Britain and the others involved should send 100,000+ more troops and do what is necessary to stop those Iranians and Syrians from providing any more support to the insurgents. Anything less than that will confirm what Osama Bin Laden said about the US... that they cannot handle casualties and will eventually tuck their tail between their legs and bail.